How much Facebook is too much Facebook? A Spotify vs. Rdio debate

Ars staffers were recently discussing the things that they were thankful for, and Associate Writer Casey Johnston and Staff Editor Megan Geuss found themselves disagreeing about whether they liked lots of Facebook integration with music streaming services or not. Spotify is the most popular music-streaming service with Facebook integration, asking its users to sign-in with their Facebook password and  auto-posting the tracks they listen to to their newsfeed (granted, this can be disabled through settings). Turntable.fm is another service that requires a Facebook login.

But services like Pandora, Rdio, and Internet radio stations can get you a similar sort of music-listening experience without linking to Facebook. Does that help or is it a hindrance to using the service? Are Rdio and Pandora users missing out on something they could have in Spotify? Casey and Megan discuss:

1. Casey: Well let's begin with: what service is it that you use that allows you to escape the scrutiny of your peers?
2. Megan: I don't know if that's the thing that really annoys me about Spotify and Turntable.fm. I mean everyone listens to embarrassing music sometimes and Spotify has proven that you're not going to get that much crap for it. I think what I appreciate about Rdio and Pandora and Internet radio is that it gives me a space to listen without giving information to the behemoth that is Facebook's Open Graph.
3. Casey: Well first of all I trash talk people about what they listen to on a regular basis.
4. Megan: Hah!
5. Casey: But I mean, for every mocking I give I sincerely compliment someone else. Especially on a solid vintage Disney selection. But that aside, I am as wary of Facebook's open graph as the next guy, but it's not like you're getting out of giving out your data to a company. You're just giving it to someone who can use it much less effectively.
6. Megan: Yeah but I value ineffective targeting. I don't like the idea that my tastes can be used, in conjunction with who my friends are, and my location, and my gender, to serve up some content that a service thinks I'll like. I mean, sure, Pandora gives me engagement ring commercials every 20 minutes when I listen to music that 20-somethings statistically like but at least that doesn't follow me around when I'm checking messages later that day on Facebook in the side columns of the page I'm looking at. Old-school radio stations also target 20-somethings generally. But why make the game so easy for marketing-types? And Spotify doesn't even have a great library of music. I mean, it's really good, but there are holdouts (Adele where are you?). And it's not like I can't get the same music elsewhere.
7. Casey: Yeah the holdouts are annoying, but don't the holdouts hold out from everything? The only really notable thing I've found on one service but not another is that Smashing Pumpkins song from the Watchmen trailer… it is on Spotify, but not on Rdio, even though more general Smashing Pumpkins selections are on Rdio. I don't know how to explain it.
8. Megan: Weird. One thing we can agree on maybe is that music streaming is a weird industry when it comes to its relationship with artists. Although I'd say social doesn't get what you want necessarily, but it helps you get what your friends have...
9. Casey: Yeah I make this point in our collaborative Thanksgiving post. The way I see it, I can't easily escape Facebook, at least in part because of my job. I pay for Spotify so I don't see or hear ads, and the social feed has been a musical renaissance for me. It takes all the work out of listening to cool music, I guess the "cool" that is defined by your circle of Spotify-using Facebook friends.
10. Megan: So, I hate to be "that guy" but I'm really not motivated by what my friends listen to on Spotify...I fear it's like an echo chamber of pop music.
11. Casey: Oh snap. Megan's friends just got told.
12. Megan: I mean, I think my friends are cool! But I'm scrolling down the list of what they're listening to right now... and it's Nicki Minaj (I can totally get down with a quick shot of Nicki Minaj but I'd never actually sit and listen to an album). One guy's been on a David Bowie kick for the last 4 hours, and while I love David Bowie, I have a specific way to listen to Bowie: With Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars at a high volume while I'm driving. There's...umm... Jack Johnson. Just...no.
13. Casey: Ok, they can't all be winners.
14. Megan: Sorry, I'll play the music snob card if I have to.
15. Casey: People have flaws Megan... especially the ones who listen to Jack Johnson
16. Megan: I mean, I get it, sometimes it's raining and you're making banana pancakes and you want to sing a song to a girl you just met who's in your bed. I get it. But that's not enough to make me want to use Spotify.
17. Casey: But see here's the best thing: when you don't know what to listen to, and then you see someone listening to like that Of Monsters and Men song...and then you know what you want to listen to! And then you happily trip off together on a path of indie but weirdly popular music. See, I have emotional attachments to Spotify now.
18. Megan: But can't you get that from an Internet radio station? Or Pandora? Or even Rdio lets you link up with users on Twitter (Twitter is like my favorite child. I'm completely blinded to all its failings when I compare Twitter and Facebook). Granted, I have not actually connected my Rdio account to my Twitter account. Probably no one has. You're right in that social is only as good as your friends.
19. Casey: Yeah I haven't connected my Rdio. But I say an Internet radio station is like a puppy: it needs constant attention and reassurance ("Are you still listening?") and it's never quite right. Maybe I have never invested enough time to make a really good station, but I'm frankly never impressed with the choices and it doesn't seem worth the investment.
20. Megan: Doesn't every music-listening option need constant attention?
21. Casey: Oh no, you make a Spotify playlist or ten and ride them into the ground.
22. Megan: You can make playlists in Rdio too! And get pre-made playlists from people. That's also the magic of random weird Internet playlists. My favorite thing is Blalock's Indie Rock Playlist. Someone turned me on to it a couple years ago, and it's like several dozen weird songs that this website culls together each month. I download these playlists, listen to all of the tracks, erase the ones I can't stand, and then I have this crazy good playlist of new songs that aren't from my social circle echo chamber AND no social media site makes money off the fact that I like this music. I don't need the Spotifies of the world, and honestly I only use Rdio when I want to preview a new album before I buy it. And Pandora I use when I'm doing manual labor or something, where I can't watch stuff but I need to have something going on in my head.
23. Casey: Yeah one of my qualms with Spotify is that it's inexplicably difficult to find and access people who aren't your friends and the playlists they make. But with Rdio it's marginally hard to find your friends, too. And with Spotify I have a built in set of friends, all with their own playlists, that I can edit myself or I can copy them and delete the bad choices.
24. Megan: Well, I guess we can agree that Casey likes other humans, and therefore can cope with the details of Spotify's money-making scheme in order to take advantage of the opinions of her friends whom she respects, and Megan is a delusional bridge troll that wants to find the most unique pearl of music and make sure no one is part of that transaction but herself and the artist, (and she tries to ignore that the streaming service she may use is pretty much the same thing as Facebook but smaller).
25. Casey: Let me ask you: is there any way Facebook or Spotify could change to alleviate your concerns? Like let's say you could either somehow cut off their data access or suddenly force them to carry even the most obscure, basement dwelling indie artists and embryonic bands. Which streaming service would you choose?
26. Megan: If Facebook had no access to my Spotify records, I would consider using Spotify. I mean, here's the deal: highly targeted ads so annoy me that I don't list my gender, among other details, on Facebook so as to avoid the night-school MBA and baby-making ads. Whenever I change my picture on Facebook it alerts my friends "Megan has changed his profile picture."
27. Casey: Wow that is sexist, Facebook.
28. Megan: But it's worth it because I don't change my profile picture that often, and also my Facebook ads are confused and irrelevant.
29. Casey: But so then you're already outfoxing Facebook, why not just give them wrong information and use Spotify and trip happily off into the sunset.
30. Megan: But I'm not going to purposely listen to music I hate on Spotify
31. Casey: Well no.
32. Megan: With Spotify, Facebook will have a list of music that I like.
33. Casey: I see... Facebook might make you a mix tape, and then present to you in front of the whole school...and then what?
34. Megan: EXACTLY!
35. Casey: Your stock will plummet.
36. Megan: I didn't spend 5-8th grade hiding out in the girl's bathroom to have it all messed up my Facebook as an adult! But no seriously, you're right, perhaps it's irrational. In fact, given today's world, it IS irrational to try to hide from social media sites. But I still like to remain a bit of an enigma if I can.
37. Casey: Truly you are confounding. But I don't think listening to, I don't know, David Bowie for all of Spotify to see changes that.
38. Megan: I guess if you want to make me a playlist Casey you're going to have to do it old-school and burn a CD. Don't send tracks through Google unless you want the FBI to get some righteous jamz.
39. Casey: I'm going to start sending you Spotify links to the sickest playlists and then emailing them from my Gmail account to your Facebook account so the world will know my impeccable taste.
40. Megan: See maybe that's it. I'd want to see what's on your Spotify playlist. But Spotify's social interaction is currently pretty passive. When I look at what my friends are listening to, I gloss over it. The one time I actually signed up for Spotify (an account I later deleted because I was getting spam e-mail from them) was when a former coworker of mine left the company and sent everyone a goodbye playlist. Maybe the way to stealing me over to the dark side is to get my friends to forcefeed me songs. Because ultimately I'd rather know what everyone is talking about than stick it to Facebook, unless Facebook makes it easy for me to stick it to Facebook.
41. Casey: See we have found your weak spot.
42. Megan: But that's Spotify's weak spot too...it needs to make me need it still.
43. Casey: This is so romantic. Wars are won and lost over this type of relationship.
44. Megan: Haha, yep.
45. Casey: So then I think we agree that social stuff is pretty magnetic, given active friends with good taste. The entire debate really is how cynical you are about open graph. And I'd say we're both cynical about it but in different ways. And my cynicism is the kind of cynicism Facebook can't get enough of and I should probably be more scared of that.